Monday, 14 February 2011

J118, Always on their minds



There's Something About Marty That Won't Go Away.
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timefortruth
11-09-2010, 09:50 PM
Reading all this stuff about o'rawe and liam clarke made me think of what martin said at the hunger strike commemoration


Over the course of the next short period people will be marking the 30th Anniversary of the 1980 and 81 Hunger Strikes. It is important that 1981 Committees are up and running in every area.

Just as our opponents attempted to criminalise these brave freedom fighters in life, have no doubt that as the 30th anniversary approaches, the revisionists will be out in force trying to once again criminalise them and our struggle. It was Bernard Ingram, Thatcher’s chief spin doctor who said that Thatcher came to regard Irish Republicans as less than human, as criminals and should be treated as such. We need to be ready and prepared to counter their lies, their propaganda and their attempts to legitimise the positions they adopted in 1981 and since.

only this time those criminalising and revising history have pawns who claim to be republican to use

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socialist95
11-09-2010, 10:05 PM
Over the course of the next short period people will be marking the 30th Anniversary of the 1980 and 81 Hunger Strikes. It is important that 1981 Committees are up and running in every area.

Just as our opponents attempted to criminalise these brave freedom fighters in life, have no doubt that as the 30th anniversary approaches, the revisionists will be out in force trying to once again criminalise them and our struggle. It was Bernard Ingram, Thatcher’s chief spin doctor who said that Thatcher came to regard Irish Republicans as less than human, as criminals and should be treated as such. We need to be ready and prepared to counter their lies, their propaganda and their attempts to legitimise the positions they adopted in 1981 and since.


martin thought that republican socialists were criminals to be chased of the wings in jails not to be reconised anywere....seems mmg thought of republican socialists as less than human...!

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sdelaney
11-09-2010, 10:05 PM
Reading all this stuff about o'rawe and liam clarke made me think of what martin said at the hunger strike commemoration



only this time those criminalising and revising history have pawns who claim to be republican to use

Indeed they have, people like McGuinness and the other 'republicans' in the stormont local administration of British delegated power.

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KMugabe
11-09-2010, 10:11 PM
Reading all this stuff about o'rawe and liam clarke made me think of what martin said at the hunger strike commemoration



only this time those criminalising and revising history have pawns who claim to be republican to use


Aye like your movement in Derry criminalised Patsy O'Hara and Mickey Devine.

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4Provinces32
11-09-2010, 10:13 PM
Reading all this stuff about o'rawe and liam clarke made me think of what martin said at the hunger strike commemoration



only this time those criminalising and revising history have pawns who claim to be republican to use

if you're a shinner i don't think you really thought this post through....

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gagall
11-09-2010, 10:14 PM
Reading all this stuff about o'rawe and liam clarke made me think of what martin said at the hunger strike commemoration

only this time those criminalising and revising history have pawns who claim to be republican to use

I noticed you made no replies in the thread about the (not so) 'secret' comm except for the sly dig about bik 'showing' O'Rawe up albeit a premature dig given how the 'secret' comm panned out.

Just in case you missed it you can get a gleek here:

http://www.longkesh.info/2010/11/07/letter-to-press-everyone-recognises-that-republican-p-r-o-h-blocks/

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Dixie Elliott
11-09-2010, 10:15 PM
Reading all this stuff about o'rawe and liam clarke made me think of what martin said at the hunger strike commemoration



only this time those criminalising and revising history have pawns who claim to be republican to use

Thats PSF down to a tee....Even Marty having breakfast with the Tories the party of Thatcher.

The hypocrisy is amazing!

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Costello
11-09-2010, 10:20 PM
Reading all this stuff about o'rawe and liam clarke made me think of what martin said at the hunger strike commemoration



only this time those criminalising and revising history have pawns who claim to be republican to use

Complete hypocrisy.

"Undermine and absorb", think about it.

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Newry Republican
11-09-2010, 11:12 PM
The poor lad who started this thread must be feeling like a right tit now :icon_lol:

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Dixie Elliott
11-09-2010, 11:57 PM
You just can't defend Marty anymore lol. He didn't look out of place with the other Muffets today.

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yaya
11-10-2010, 12:39 AM
Thats PSF down to a tee....Even Marty having breakfast with the Tories the party of Thatcher.

The hypocrisy is amazing!

As Republican Socialists stood outside in the pouring rain protesting at the Tory Party conference in Birmingham Marty was preparing to be chauffeur driven past the large security presence straight to the location to go inside for a meet 'n' greet. The symbolic nature of that incident alone beggers belief. McGuinness is as much a republican socialist as his new mates are in the Tory party.

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Dixie Elliott
11-10-2010, 12:56 AM
I just wonder what he'll do next to show them up lol.

Attend a polo match wearing a tweed suit with Sir Godfrey of the Shire?

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freedom81
11-10-2010, 01:07 AM
He's embarrassing.I stopped calling him and his party republican a long time ago.Theyre no more republican than i am a loyalist.:hmf:

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yaya
11-10-2010, 01:17 AM
Cara this is the same guy that called armed Republicans "traitors to the island of Ireland" whilst standing beside the British PSNI's Chief Constable outside the British occupations parliament building in the North of Ireland. The working people couldn't get within a stones throw of the Tory party conference yet he is driven past were the protestors were protesting, straight past Republican Socialists and straight past the heavy police presence in a chauffeur driven car were he was greeted by the Tory party upon arrival. Even the Brits are having a good laugh at him. I can't help but keep falling back on the stories released from Ingram that McGuinness is J118 the one everyone else was outed to protect. McGuinness is showing all the signs, saying all the right (or wrong) things and promoting British normalisation in a manner that only an agent for British interests would. Just my thoughts of course.

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freedom81
11-10-2010, 01:27 AM
Cara this is the same guy that called armed Republicans "traitors to the island of Ireland" whilst standing beside the British PSNI's Chief Constable outside the British occupations parliament building in the North of Ireland. The working people couldn't get within a stones throw of the Tory party conference yet he is driven past were the protestors were protesting, straight past Republican Socialists and straight past the heavy police presence in a chauffeur driven car were he was greeted by the Tory party upon arrival. Even the Brits are having a good laugh at him. I can't help but keep falling back on the stories released from Ingram that McGuinness is J118 the one everyone else was outed to protect. McGuinness is showing all the signs, saying all the right (or wrong) things and promoting British normalisation in a manner that only an agent for British interests would. Just my thoughts of course.

I agree 100% cara.I believe he is J118 and who better to have running the provos than a brit agent.That way they can begin the long but firm method of shutting down the IRA and thus the war, which we now have today.The brits had a long term plan and adams and mcg were it.

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DerryRepublican1919
11-10-2010, 01:47 AM
MMG and sinn fein are a load of hypocrites!

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4Provinces32
11-10-2010, 02:00 AM
i don't think marty is j118. i just think he became a proper politician and sold out.

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4Provinces32
11-10-2010, 02:06 AM
a wise man once said "With great power comes great responsibility"(ben parker - spider man's uncle).:haii:

i just think martin couldn't handle all that power properly. power corrupts.

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freedom81
11-10-2010, 02:08 AM
i don't think marty is j118. i just think he became a proper politician and sold out.

You have to look at the whole pattern of the war cara.Not a single shot fired at the enemy, not a single charge for membership while hundreds of foot soldiers were getting interned and charged daily. He survived the shoot to kill policy which you'd think he and adams would be the first to go. The list of circumstantial evidence can go on and on and on.Why were the men at the top not taken out? Because i believe the brits had full control of the provos through adams and mcg.To have them ousted would mean lose control.They needed their doves in their to keep a token war going so not to lose the movement to more hardliners and then eventually wind it down to what we have now. If the shoe fits?

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4Provinces32
11-10-2010, 02:13 AM
You have to look at the whole pattern of the war cara.Not a single shot fired at the enemy, not a single charge for membership while hundreds of foot soldiers were getting interned and charged daily. He survived the shoot to kill policy which you'd think he and adams would be the first to go. The list of circumstantial evidence can go on and on and on.Why were the men at the top not taken out? Because i believe the brits had full control of the provos through adams and mcg.To have them ousted would mean lose control.They needed their doves in their to keep a token war going so not to lose the movement to more hardliners and then eventually wind it down to what we have now. If the shoe fits?

or look at it from another angle, what would have been the reaction form the republican community if he was taken out? the brits controlled the loyalist death squads, and knew what would have been the penalty for taking out such a highly regarded and respected member of republicanism. there probably would have been a mass escalation of political killings and the like.

i think he was a crafty being. and had the backing and respect of the provisional movement and knew to be in the right places and the right time.

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yaya
11-10-2010, 02:38 AM
Another thing that has really interested me over the last few years in connection with McGuinness was his response to the allegations from Ingram that he was a British agent.


I am a thousand, I am a million per cent confident no one will ever produce anything against me."

Now is that not the strangest way to answer an allegation of that magnitude? I have never been able to find any article that contains McGuinness actually saying that he wasn't an agent just that he was really sure that no one could prove it. Maybe if someone has come across such an article they could point me to it as I am still quite amazed everytime I read that response he gave. What a very strange thing to say.

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freedom81
11-10-2010, 02:39 AM
or look at it from another angle, what would have been the reaction form the republican community if he was taken out? the brits controlled the loyalist death squads, and knew what would have been the penalty for taking out such a highly regarded and respected member of republicanism. there probably would have been a mass escalation of political killings and the like.

i think he was a crafty being. and had the backing and respect of the provisional movement and knew to be in the right places and the right time.

Well they always said that when the provos executed frank hegarty it was to protect a bigger tout.When they tortured and killed paddy flood they again said he was sacrificed to protect a bigger tout.Even their own members disbelieved that paddy was a tout. And when mmg was waved through a checkpoint only for keenan to be swarmed with brits and imprisoned took the ch/s out which allowed mcg to move up.Again, highly circumstantial but i just cant believe that he wasnt imprisoned or killed by someone.He was protected.Him and J119.

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4Provinces32
11-10-2010, 02:51 AM
Another thing that has really interested me over the last few years in connection with McGuinness was his response to the allegations from Ingram that he was a British agent.



Now is that not the strangest way to answer an allegation of that magnitude? I have never been able to find any article that contains McGuinness actually saying that he wasn't an agent just that he was really sure that no one could prove it. Maybe if someone has come across such an article they could point me to it as I am still quite amazed everytime I read that response he gave. What a very strange thing to say.

cryptome might have something....

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yaya
11-10-2010, 03:00 AM
McGuinness has the ability to brilliantly feign sincerity, that makes him capable of being all that his been accussed of. I clocked him on question time a couple of years ago getting upset over fishing and saying how he opposed it because it was cruel.

This is the guy who was allegedly the IRAs chief of staff.

TEN FACTS about the "charmed existence" enjoyed by Martin McGuinness. There are several reasons for suspicion falling on Martin McGuinness for he survived when those around him have been shot or jailed. Derry IRA informants coughed up more secrets, leading to more arms finds, than any other part of the IRA.

1. The first and biggest find of arms imported from Libya in the mid 1980s - 100 AK47 and five medium machineguns were found at Five Fingers Strand in north Donegal, and the information came via an RUC informant in Derry.

2. The IRA's powerful M60 machinegun, imported from the United States in the early 1980s, was recovered by the RUC in the city in 1982. The weapon had been used to kill eight soldiers and policemen in other parts of the province and was intended to wreak havoc in Derry. Instead, it was never fired and recovered in a community hall in the Bogside.

3. The Derry IRA was harder hit by the 'supergrass' phenomenon that any other IRA 'brigade'. About 80 of its members were before the courts at one point in 1982-1983, though McGuinness, as the local 'officer commanding,' was never arrested. In the aftermath of the supergrass period the IRA in Derry went into very noticeable decline. It was responsible for killing nine members of the security forces in 1982, but by the following year it was responsible for only three murders a Protestant businessman, a soldier and a policeman.

4. Elsewhere in Northern Ireland, IRA units were responsible for 47 murders, mostly off-duty police and Ulster Defence Regiment members. This trend continued throughout the 1980s with the exception of the Patsy Gillespie human bomb in 1990, in which five soldiers died. In 1987 - the year of the Enniskillen Cenotaph bomb - a total of 45 people, security forces and civilians were murdered by the IRA, but there were no killings in Derry (though two IRA men blew themselves up while making bombs).

5. The following year, the only people to die at the hands of the IRA in Derry were three Catholics killed in a booby trap bomb while trying to help a neighbour. While the IRA units in Tyrone, Fermanagh, Armagh and Down were engaged in a vicious, bloody onslaught against security force members, Derry was inactive and dysfunctional.

6. There are strong suspicions among police on both sides of the border that the killing of the two soldiers, Gunner Miles Amos and LanceBombardier Stephen Cummins, was an event which was 'allowed' to happen to cover the tracks of a highly placed intelligence sources inside the Derry IRA. Wellplaced sources say there was a near breakdown inrelations between the Army and police in Derry after this event, with the Army blaming the police, who they knew to have wellplaced informants in the local IRA, for failing to stop the attack. While police insisted they knew nothing of the attack, the Army remained unconvinced. A short while later, the Army set up an under-cover operation to thwart an IRA bomb attack on the city centre. The route of the bomb-run was changed and the head bomber escaped under the noses of waiting SAS members. ??????????

7. In 1979 Brian Keenan, who was running a ruthless bombing campaign in Britain and Northern Ireland, was arrested after being flagged down by McGuinness on the roadway where they had a brief conversation. When he was in jail Keenan asked that McGuinness be investigated by the IRA, but he did not pursue the matter after he was released.

8. In November 1994 a police investigation, Operation Taurus, found three witnesses to implicate McGuinness in directing terrorism. It was halted with the appearance of a letter asking prosecutors to bear in mind that McGuinness would shortly be in talks with the government about the future of Northern Ireland. His political value, underlined by his hotline to a senior MI6 officer, may be sufficient to explain why McGuinness has often seemed a protected species.

9. No members of the security forces were killed in 1991 or 1992. Then a young Constable, Michael Ferguson, was shot dead outside the Richmond Centre in January 1993, and an RIR member, Christopher Wren, was killed in May the same year.

10. In the blizzard of violence that stemmed from the north Belfast IRA's bombing of Frizzell's fish shop on the Shankill Road, the IRA in Derry remained silent. There were no IRA killings in Derry in 1994. Ironically, in the run-up to the 1994 IRA ceasefire, journalists were briefed that one of the main impediments to Gerry Adams' 'peace' plans were 'hardliners' like Martin McGuinness then holding the title of IRA chief of staff. What is clear is that the Special Branch, Army or Intelligence Services had deeply infiltrated the IRA in Derry from around the early to mid 1980s. As the IRA moved towards ceasefire in the early 1990s, Derry seemed to lead the way in running down its operations.

All over Northern Ireland people are reassessing McGuinness's career in the wake of newspaper claims by Martin Ingram, a former military intelligence officer, that the man once regarded as an IRA hawk had been controlled by MI6 for at least two decades. A retired RUC special branch officer believes McGuinness was the MI5 agent code-named "Fisherman".

Republican veterans point to the "charmed existence" enjoyed by McGuinness. He has held every senior position in the Provisional IRA since its inception, but has never been shot or injured nor served a serious prison sentence in the UK.

During the internment swoops he managed to avoid detention and travelled freely back and forth from Londonderry to his granny's house in Donegal where he was nominally "on the run". Statements by another supergrass, Robert Quigley, implicated McGuinness in organising IRA activity, but he was never charged. While McGuinness remained beyond the law, his followers were jailed and killed. Now he has a holiday home in Donegal, he and Gerry Adams are both millionaires. Interesting, isn't it!

Some very interesting points that are hard to argue against.

I have been quite determined for some years now that McGuinness has been working as a British agent and not because I am 'anti-SF' or because I just don't like him, neither of which are true, but because no matter how one looks at the evidence it all points to there being no other alternative outcome. Can anyone in their right mind honestly say that the way he has been talking over recent years is the language of a Republican? This is let alone some of the points raised above.

Either way I don't lose sleep over it.

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yaya
11-10-2010, 03:02 AM
cryptome might have something....

If it does I have been unable to find anything. I would like to find something were McGuinness actually states, even simply, that he isn't or wasn't an agent.

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yaya
11-10-2010, 03:05 AM
On the issue of Operation Taurus this is what wiki says;


Operation Taurus was the name of a planned prosecution by the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) against Martin McGuinness.

Taurus was to be based on allegations arising from the 1993 broadcast of an edition of the "Cook Report" presented by Roger Cook and involving Freddie Scappaticci aka. Stakeknife and the testimony of three witnesses prepared to testify for the Crown.

The operation was abandoned on an unknown date and no charges were made, as it was not in the public interest. Supposedly because Martin McGuinness was in negotiations for the peace process; however some allege that Martin McGuinness was a British spy.

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gerard_black00
11-10-2010, 03:34 AM
As I think everybody knows there has been an upsurge in revelations about British intelligence agency infiltration of (some would say control over) the IRA in recent weeks. This has culminated in a definitive statement from a former British army intelligence officer and handler that Martin McGuinness, widely considered the most powerful IRA figure of the last two decades, is a paid agent of the British government. It has come from a former warrant officer in the Force Research Unit who uses the pseudonym Martin Ingram. His real name is well known, he is personally also known and friendly with many Irish journalists so there is no real doubt about his identity or the fact that he really did serve in the British Army's Intelligence Corps in various places in Northern Ireland in the mid-80s. (The Force Research Unit is sort of a special Irish unit of that Intelligence Corps). In particular he served in Derry and was the handler for Frank Hegarty who infiltrated the Provisional IRA on his behalf during c.1984 and its the story of what happened to Hegarty that seems to confirm for Ingram that McGuinness is in fact a British agent. So basically he was told by his superiors to use Hegarty to get close to McGuinness and that is what happened the thing being that Hegarty rose suspiciously fast in the local IRA hierarchy even though he wasn't all that well known to McGuinness. In a space of only a few months he knew enough to pinpoint a huge arms dump held locally for example. So it seems that Ingram feels that Hegarty rose through the ranks so fast because he was an informer, in other words that McGuinness knew that and was systematically assisting the FRU in its task of infiltrating all ranks of the IRA. Hegarty after a while fled to the UK and was watched by FRU minders until he received word from McGuinness inviting him back to Ireland where he was ultimately to meet his death. The crucial point in this episode is that Ingram says that it was the commander of the FRU who "thought Frank to be a security concern and his depression was a potential problem for the FRU." So according to Ingram no great pains were expended in delaying him in the UK and his return and subsequent death seem to have been designed to solve that problem from the FRU's point of view.

So sure for most people its a conspiracy theory too far to say that McGuinness is a British government agent but the fact is that we now have a person in the know in the British intelligence community in Derry who is saying just that and his opinion must carry some weight. It is not the only reference that points this way and I thought I would point out a few more references for people to mull over before they dismiss this theory out of hand:

1) This is an account of a conversation between the former O/C of the Southern Command of the IRA (while being simultaneously a garda agent) Sean O'Callaghan, and Brendan Dowd, discussing the opinions of the senior IRA figure Brian Keenan while they were both held in Full Sutton prison in England:
" 'Does he [Brian Keenan] really think he was set up?' I asked Dowd. Dowd just smiled and said 'He thinks it was McGuinness.' 'He must be off his head,' I said, while at the same time being perfectly aware how Keenan came to such a conclusion. Keenan had been arrested at a security force roadblock just outside Banbridge in County Down, in March 1979. McGuinness was arrested at the same roadblock, but in a different car. Keenan maintained to Dowd that shortly before his arrest McGuinness, who was driving a car that may well have been known to the security forces, waved him down to tell him something that he, Keenan, regarded as unimportant. Keenan was adamant that the car he was in was clean and unknown to the security forces. He thought it possible that McGuinness, spotting that he himself was under surveillance, decided to take the opportunity to get rid of Keenan, who he knew was wanted on specific charges relating to the British bombing campaign. Waving down Keenan's car, he maintained, could have been McGuinness's way of pointing out to the police that there was another 'interesting' car in the area. Even Keenan, paranoid and untrusting as he was, couldn't really believe that McGuinness was an informer.....[goes on to say that the Marxist Keenan was against the Catholic Adams and McGuinness]...
Whether or not there is any substance in Keenan's belief that he was set up by a member of the Army Council, or in Dowd's allegation that Keenan blamed McGuinness in particular, it is certainly true that following Keenan's imprisonment Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness assumed a degree of control over the republican movement that they could not have dreamed of while Keenan was around.....
If Keenan really believed that he was set up by McGuinness, he has done nothing about it since he was released from prison four years ago. Was he simply speculating, thinking out loud ? But if that was the case why did he send such a definitive message out of the jail: 'I was set up by a member of the Army Council. I know who it is. Wait until I get out.' "(1)

2) I believe it was Andrew Hunter the then conservative MP who stated once in the Sunday Times that he had heard that one of the British army units stationed in Derry in the 70s was given strict instructions to leave McGuinness alone.

3) One book that some claim has spurred a lot of the new thinking on British government control over the IRA is 'The Secret History of the IRA' by the experienced local journalist Ed Moloney. Here are a few quotes from a review of this book in the Telegraph (Oct 12 2002 p.3) by Toby Harnden:
"Is Martin McGuinness a high-level informer who has been working for the British for the past two decades? .....[This is one of] the tantalising questions raised by this important and compelling work, which slices through many of the convenient untruths that have been peddled by the political elites of Belfast, Dublin and London.
...
Moloney also offers remarkable insights into such men as Martin McGuinness, who he says held nearly every senior IRA rank but did much to undermine the organisation.
...
Although the book does not name the high-level informer who was apparently working for the British, there is a strong implication that McGuinness is the most likely "tout" . As with a good mafia thriller, the reader is soon guessing which of the protagonists is wearing a wire for the Feds. If Moloney knows, he is not saying. But when he writes that "no one ever suggested Martin McGuinness or any other senior figures at his level were passing on information to the British", one suspects that this was not meant to be taken at face value."

Yet if this was true I respectfully submit that the accepted interpretation of the troubles has to go out the window. Basically its obvious then that the Republican paramilitary groups were just as much in the pocket of the British intelligence agencies as the loyalist groups and yet if that is the case then clearly those agencies, and indeed the occupying British army, had to be there for some other reason than the suppression of terrorism because the 'terrorism' was all along their carefully nurtured baby. My tuppence worth on that question is that the troubles were an Irish version of the Italian 'strategy of tension'. This strategy was so called by the Italian Prime Minister Giulio Andreotti and describes the reason why the Italian intelligence agencies, in alliance with those of the US and the UK, sponsored terrorism in Italy in the 70s and 80s. Basically they wanted to scare people into supporting those agencies and accompanying draconian security legislation etc. Again the story unfolded for the Italian public in much the same way that it has for us here in that first people began to realise that the right wing groups were really just the security agencies out of uniform and then they were later to find out that the left wing Red Brigades, ostensibly the latter's enemy, were also run by the security forces in alliance with the CIA and the P-2 masonic lodge.(2)

But I think furthermore that this revelation, if it is true, that McGuinness is a British agent must in fact also make people think about the whole structure of Irish civil society and not just the paramilitaries. What I mean is that the same intelligence agencies from the UK and the US (and working no doubt through domestic agencies as well, North and South) obviously also attempt to control political parties, media outlets, trade unions, police forces and judiciary etc and the question is have they had as much luck controlling those entities as they have the paramilitaries? Bear in mind they bring a lot of power and money to the table to do this. Ingram says that in the mid 80s he knew of one offer of £50,000 cash being offered to an IRA figure as an initial sweetener to persuade him to inform. If Tom Gilmartin's revelations about some Irish politicians are anything to go by then you have to wonder what you could buy with that kind of money in those circles. Of course those agencies also have huge information sources that they can use to blackmail people with as well and in fact Ingram says that Denis Donaldson was blackmailed when the RUC Special Branch found out that he had been caught stealing on a covert Marks and Spencers security camera. (3) Just look at the recent leadership contest in the Lib-Dem party in Britain and imagine how you could manipulate that race if you had access to the sort of information that modern agencies have access to by electronic and other means.(4)
Ingram provides a glimpse of that kind of infiltration of civil society when he talks about RUC Special Branch running senior agents within the Official and Democratic Unionist Parties where "they could and would be able and willing to exert influence." He says likewise that as regards the UK intel agencies' relationship with Irish government ministers and the gardai that "the level of penetration was high including Gardai commissioners." So maybe its sensible for Irish people to ask some hard questions sometimes about the various elements of Irish civil society and without being paranoid maybe we should be cautious if there is too cozy a consensus between this 'establishment' and the policies of the UK or US governments. I include the US because its obviously the home of the most powerful of those agencies as this reference in the Guardian to the CIA's role in the UK illustrates:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74119

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gotticsc
11-10-2010, 06:21 PM
You have to look at the whole pattern of the war cara.Not a single shot fired at the enemy, not a single charge for membership while hundreds of foot soldiers were getting interned and charged daily. He survived the shoot to kill policy which you'd think he and adams would be the first to go. The list of circumstantial evidence can go on and on and on.Why were the men at the top not taken out? Because i believe the brits had full control of the provos through adams and mcg.To have them ousted would mean lose control.They needed their doves in their to keep a token war going so not to lose the movement to more hardliners and then eventually wind it down to what we have now. If the shoe fits?


Mate you can dress up whatever you like but until you can prove anything i wouldnt post hearsay and as you call it "circumstancial evidence"

It suits peoples agenda to call M McG a tout and a traitor these days.

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Boyler
11-10-2010, 06:28 PM
Mate you can dress up whatever you like but until you can prove anything i wouldnt post hearsay and as you call it "circumstancial evidence"

It suits peoples agenda to call M McG a tout and a traitor these days.

Correction cara it suits McG agenda to call Republicans 'Traitors'

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redman25
11-10-2010, 07:20 PM
suppose most people have heard that interview where stakeknife talks about mcguinness, early 1990s

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freedom81
11-10-2010, 08:37 PM
Mate you can dress up whatever you like but until you can prove anything i wouldnt post hearsay and as you call it "circumstancial evidence"

It suits peoples agenda to call M McG a tout and a traitor these days.

Mate you can dress it down as much as you like, and it suits your agenda not to call him a tout because if the truth ever came out that he did, you could never raise your head again after supporting and sticking up for a brit agent.

And as far as circumstantial evidence is concerned, didnt the ra kill touts based on same.

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gotticsc
11-10-2010, 11:17 PM
Mate you can dress it down as much as you like, and it suits your agenda not to call him a tout because if the truth ever came out that he did, you could never raise your head again after supporting and sticking up for a brit agent.

And as far as circumstantial evidence is concerned, didnt the ra kill touts based on same.



where did i say i support him.

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